Death in Dark Souls

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    JohnnyHarpoon
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    Death in Dark Souls

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:01 pm

    If every time a character dies in Dark Souls, they respawn at a bonfire lookin' all Hollow, how come NPC's, when killed, just disappear/death seems to be so final?

    I don't really think there's an answer for this, but I'm interested to see if anybody's got anything good.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by cloudyeki on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:03 pm

    This has been discussed before. Lots of theories mind you, nothing solid. I stick to the 'they revive, but in a different time' idea.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by SEANB240 on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:07 pm

    They revive in NG+ and don't remember what happened. Eternal return, anyone?
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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:12 pm

    All the bonfires that don't have firekeepers are not lit. No character ever explains the bonfires to you, so I'm guessing you are the only one who can use them. Sure, they can probably use it for estus or something, but I don't think they resurrect there.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Tzai on Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:56 am

    Notice how the NPCs all die like phantoms do? It because they are invaders that stuck around in your world for a while and you sever the connections between your world and theirs when they are killed!
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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:35 am

    Sorry Shkar but all undead have firekeeper powers, maybe it's because of the firekeeper scar all of them have (no idea why they have it). Rite of Kindling description.

    This secret rite allows bonfires to be
    bolstered further with Kindling,
    so that even more Estus can be collected.

    Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
    but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
    that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
    How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.



    I also think undead aren't immortal. As you say they are still alive because they breed, bleed, etc. They die too, and I think it's due to extreme hollowness. Some of the corpses you see on Lordran are from NPCs, and they are all undead people. Time distortion must have a role on the corpses you see, and the hollow NPCs you fight.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:02 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:Sorry Shkar but all undead have firekeeper powers, maybe it's because of the firekeeper scar all of them have (no idea why they have it). Rite of Kindling description.

    This secret rite allows bonfires to be
    bolstered further with Kindling,
    so that even more Estus can be collected.

    Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
    but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
    that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
    How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.



    I also think undead aren't immortal. As you say they are still alive because they breed, bleed, etc. They die too, and I think it's due to extreme hollowness. Some of the corpses you see on Lordran are from NPCs, and they are all undead people. Time distortion must have a role on the corpses you see, and the hollow NPCs you fight.

    None of them LIGHT bonfires though. If any undead could light bonfires, why would the bother making it so that you had to light each fire you found?


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:35 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Sorry Shkar but all undead have firekeeper powers, maybe it's because of the firekeeper scar all of them have (no idea why they have it). Rite of Kindling description.

    This secret rite allows bonfires to be
    bolstered further with Kindling,
    so that even more Estus can be collected.

    Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
    but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
    that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
    How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.



    I also think undead aren't immortal. As you say they are still alive because they breed, bleed, etc. They die too, and I think it's due to extreme hollowness. Some of the corpses you see on Lordran are from NPCs, and they are all undead people. Time distortion must have a role on the corpses you see, and the hollow NPCs you fight.

    None of them LIGHT bonfires though. If any undead could light bonfires, why would the bother making it so that you had to light each fire you found?

    Simply because we never see them lighting bonfires does not mean they can't. The rite of kindling description seems to solidly support all undead's ability to use bonfires.

    I would hold that corpses we find are undead that are so far hollow that they can't move anymore although they are still "undead," but not completely dead.

    Like how Seigelinde subdues her father.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:39 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Sorry Shkar but all undead have firekeeper powers, maybe it's because of the firekeeper scar all of them have (no idea why they have it). Rite of Kindling description.

    This secret rite allows bonfires to be
    bolstered further with Kindling,
    so that even more Estus can be collected.

    Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
    but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
    that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.
    How peculiar that humans had found little use for humanity until they turned Undead.



    I also think undead aren't immortal. As you say they are still alive because they breed, bleed, etc. They die too, and I think it's due to extreme hollowness. Some of the corpses you see on Lordran are from NPCs, and they are all undead people. Time distortion must have a role on the corpses you see, and the hollow NPCs you fight.

    None of them LIGHT bonfires though. If any undead could light bonfires, why would the bother making it so that you had to light each fire you found?

    Simply because we never see them lighting bonfires does not mean they can't. The rite of kindling description seems to solidly support all undead's ability to use bonfires.

    I would hold that corpses we find are undead that are so far hollow that they can't move anymore although they are still "undead," but not completely dead.

    Like how Seigelinde subdues her father.

    It's not a matter of why we never see them do it. From had to go through and MAKE the bonfires "dead" when you first find them. They obviously had a reason to want to do it.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Tzai on Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:14 pm

    Think that lighting the bonfire really means that you make the bonfire acknowledge you and perpetuate your existence in that area rather than whatever the current interpretation is? The fire wasnt necessarily dead but it was reduced to cinders. Also you know when you warp to a bonfire it starts back up again? That could easily be just a game thing but it fits nicely with the "bonfire acknowledging you" theory.
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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:48 pm

    Also, most of the bonfires that are "unlit" are far from human form society. Hollows are completely mad and they don't care about lighting bonfires. As you can see, most of the NPCs go to Firelink Shrine because that bonfire is already lit. I blame they just don't want to waste their humanity lighting any bonfires, because of the state of depression the world has.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:06 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:Also, most of the bonfires that are "unlit" are far from human form society. Hollows are completely mad and they don't care about lighting bonfires. As you can see, most of the NPCs go to Firelink Shrine because that bonfire is already lit. I blame they just don't want to waste their humanity lighting any bonfires, because of the state of depression the world has.

    It doesn't take any humanity to LIGHT a fire. Andre works near an unlight fire (although, he isn't dead), and Solaire sits near several of them.

    And some more evidence that you are special, when anybody is nearby to attack you, the fire goes out.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:55 pm

    But to keep it lit you need to pour humanity into the bonfire. The bonfires fade if they aren't fed with humanity. This doesn't happen in the game because of game mechanics. In theory give them enough time without feeding humanity and they'll fade. It also seems the firekeeper bonfires are special, as you can't light them again. No idea why though. I don't know why the bonfires fade when there are enemies around (not only Undead). Andre/Solaire don't care about lighting bonfires, they just mind their own business, and remember humanity is scarce in Lordran (almost everyone is a hollow). Everyone is trying to keep their humanity to stay sane. The character is not special in my opinion Shkar, it's just another Undead in Lordran.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:43 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:But to keep it lit you need to pour humanity into the bonfire. The bonfires fade if they aren't fed with humanity. This doesn't happen in the game because of game mechanics. In theory give them enough time without feeding humanity and they'll fade. It also seems the firekeeper bonfires are special, as you can't light them again. No idea why though. I don't know why the bonfires fade when there are enemies around (not only Undead). Andre/Solaire don't care about lighting bonfires, they just mind their own business, and remember humanity is scarce in Lordran (almost everyone is a hollow). Everyone is trying to keep their humanity to stay sane. The character is not special in my opinion Shkar, it's just another Undead in Lordran.

    I will admit that you need humanity to make the flame grow, but you obviously don't need humanity to relight the bonfire. You do it whether you are human with 99 humanity or undead with 0. Hell, Gwyn LINKED the fire, and by common consent, he had had NO humanity.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by WyrmHero on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:40 am

    Gwyn's a fing god Shkar lol. He had the most powerful soul, and yet the flame is fading cause he isn't human. That's why you go there, the flame feeds on your humanity and explodes.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:55 am

    WyrmHero wrote:Gwyn's a fing god Shkar lol. He had the most powerful soul, and yet the flame is fading cause he isn't human. That's why you go there, the flame feeds on your humanity and explodes.

    We have no actual proof that the flame originally "died" the first time because it was sabotaged. For all we know, it simply burned down like any normal fire. Too be honest, I've noticed a lot of things lately that seem pretty unsubstantiated. I think I may need to reread Acidic's lore posts to find his theories and the evidence for them.

    That said, even if the flame is fading because Gwyn didn't have any humanity, he still lasted for a thousand years. If no humanity = 1000 years, then you should last FOREVER.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Tzai on Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:55 am

    Shkar wrote:
    WyrmHero wrote:Gwyn's a fing god Shkar lol. He had the most powerful soul, and yet the flame is fading cause he isn't human. That's why you go there, the flame feeds on your humanity and explodes.

    We have no actual proof that the flame originally "died" the first time because it was sabotaged. For all we know, it simply burned down like any normal fire. Too be honest, I've noticed a lot of things lately that seem pretty unsubstantiated. I think I may need to reread Acidic's lore posts to find his theories and the evidence for them.

    That said, even if the flame is fading because Gwyn didn't have any humanity, he still lasted for a thousand years. If no humanity = 1000 years, then you should last FOREVER.

    I'm going to make a wild claim with no base and say that the first flame feeds off of powerful souls rather than humanity.It would make sense that Gwyn would come up with this answer if this was the case. What better way to keep the fire going than to feed it the most powerful soul around? It's why Frampt and Gwyndolin spend an incredible amount of time finding strong undead with strong souls to nurture and then feed to the flame. Their way is probably the most efficient. You make them strong enough to kill gods then you send them to replace Gwyn. After that no matter who gains entry into the kiln, they wont be able to kill something that cannot truly die and are reborn right there in the kiln at that very same bonfire they last lit. Bam! You just made your self a phoenix in only 1000 years!

    Need more proof? Think about how the Witch of Izalith tried to duplicate the first flame. She tried to do it with a soul, right? It wasnt humanity she first thought of, it was the sacrifice of a soul that was the method decided upon.

    So powerful souls = longevity of first flame. It only took the sacrifice of Gwyn and the glorious *** up of the Witch for them to figure this out.


    Strong souls can only be made through trials and tribulation. Thus why the story of the undead pilgrimage was made.

    (Came up with this as I was typing so its put into order of how it came to me.)
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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:47 pm

    In terms of the OP, I like the theory that they die in your game, and then return next playthrough...but then why do enemies respawn every time you rest at a bonfire?

    I guess the whole 'flow of time' thing...but still, if NPC's go to a different time/your next playthrough when they die, why don't enemies? Are many of the enemies not just old soldiers and warriors and knights, gone super hollow?

    This discrepancy just always bothered me, and I'm sure it's been discussed to death.

    As for the Flame...frankly I've just kind of accepted that I don't know what the f*ck it is. It's the sun, it's not the sun, it's just fire in general, I don't know. I don't know what race Gwyn and his knights were, cause they weren't human, and I don't understand why the Gods in the game can seemingly die, when in my mind they are Gods, and thus fear death because it is something they do not know...but not everyone can be a God just because they're larger than human size, which rehashes the question, "What race are Gwyn and his Knights?" and then I don't know and...

    ...and those are my thoughts on the Flame.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by samster628 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:34 am

    Souls are the source of all power in lorderan. the first flame (which cannot possibly be the sun) just turned up and the 4 lords drew the powerful lord souls from it. As they killed dragons, built civilisations, gathered followers and developed magic the flame began to fade and the undead began to appear. Gwyn decided to try to relight the flame and succeeded but the flame once again has begun to recede. the flame will always need more fuel and humanity is the only sorce that will be infinite as it is part of the dark soul and the dark soul is the only soul to keep growing. Humans can kindle because they have humanity inside them. soon the DLC will come out on console and it will all make sense. unless of corse i have been lied to...


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:10 pm

    samster628 wrote:Souls are the source of all power in lorderan. the first flame (which cannot possibly be the sun) just turned up and the 4 lords drew the powerful lord souls from it. As they killed dragons, built civilisations, gathered followers and developed magic the flame began to fade and the undead began to appear. Gwyn decided to try to relight the flame and succeeded but the flame once again has begun to recede. the flame will always need more fuel and humanity is the only sorce that will be infinite as it is part of the dark soul and the dark soul is the only soul to keep growing. Humans can kindle because they have humanity inside them. soon the DLC will come out on console and it will all make sense. unless of corse i have been lied to...

    Technically speaking, there is no reference in game to the "First Flame". It just says "Fire".


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by samster628 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:43 am

    "then there was fire" but it showed the kiln of the first flame and the fire you light is in a place called the kiln of the first flame. that is why people call it the first flame as opposed to just "fire", which would be confusing.


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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

    Post by dianaduh on Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:35 pm

    You can actually find some NPC's go hollow, you don't need to go to NG+ to find it, ie Laurentius after you tell him about the daughter of chaos, you can find him hollowed at Blighttown swamp.
    What makes sense to me it's that you were sent to Lordran in pilgrimage, and there's time travel, so maybe one of the reasons you don't find some NPC hollow it's because fate doesn't allow you to.

    About NPC's lightning the fire, it's really weird actually. Most of the NPC's are next to firekeepers. But if go to the Catacombs after Rhea, there won't be any bonfire lit, you still gotta light every bonfire.

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    Re: Death in Dark Souls

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