What if. . .

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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:31 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:But if he isnt our GoW then we still need to find ours. And if its different for each world knowing its Solaire in another doesn't help our search.

    Odd are our God of War left Lordran like all of the other gods


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Shkar on Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:18 pm

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:
    DoughGuy wrote:But if he isnt our GoW then we still need to find ours. And if its different for each world knowing its Solaire in another doesn't help our search.

    Odd are our God of War left Lordran like all of the other gods

    He was stripped of his divinity, so technically speaking, he isn't a god anymore.

    Too be honest, I think we have hit the limit of how much lore we can uncover right now. There are just too many things being taken for granted or ignored. I think I will wait until the DLC to give some more info before I start theorycrafting again.


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:17 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Your world is the real world. So is Solaire's. So is every chosen undead's. Solaire is a chosen undead, he links with the flame, he can;t be the GoW (unless Shkar is right and the player is the GoW). He exists in a separate world to you, his own world. The GoW exists in your world. Therefore they cannot be the same.

    Remember Dough when we had that big argument over the parallel world/time distortion theory. And we never really came to a compromise? That thing makes me antsy about your comment, but since I know we fundamentally view the mechanics of the world differently I can't really argue.

    I agree with you on the god of war, and being that people are undead they can't be the GoW, but not for the reason that there are multiple. But I don't think we can agree on the reasons why.


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Siegfried. on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:07 pm

    Personally, I believe the player character isn't the God of War because it simply seems so unlike FromSoftware to do that. The idea behind the creation of the player character is that they might be anyone from any background; simply one of many branded with the Darksign and therefore able to use souls to empower themselves. And empower oneself with enough souls, and you can exceed the gods already. We know that all undead can do this because souls are used as currency -- what use are souls that simply sit there, unused? So the player character can complete the objectives of the game because their determination allows them to harvest a large amount of souls. Nothing special, apart from our will to continue with and complete the game (representing the unyielding will of our undead character).

    So to make the player character inherently special would detract from one of the themes implied in the gameplay experience, which I'm sure FromSoftware are entirely aware of. If there's a God of War in the game, I don't see any reason he couldn't be the Firstborn -- and if the Firstborn is in the game, it's Solaire. The Sunlight Warriors connection hypothesis is old and well-worn at this point, but I still think it's the most likely option.

    Consider that lightning in this game is one of the markers of true divinity. Ornstein, a direct servant of Gwyn, is characterised by his weapon's lightning damage and its effectiveness against dragons. Gwyn himself harnessed lightning, and lightning weapons are only made by the Anor Londo blacksmith. Furthermore, lightning damage can only be harnessed by the player via that blacksmith or Faith-related abilities. The Sunlight Warriors covenant is the only covenant that provides lightning-based damage -- its power is directly connected to the gods of Anor Londo, and probably more specifically, Gwyn. Even Gwyndolin's Darkmoon covenant harnesses magic damage rather than lightning damage.

    Solaire is the only Sunlight Warrior we meet as an NPC and the only human we see harness lightning. We also find the Lightning Blade miracle in the tomb of Gwyn as a sort of posthumous parting gift, which at the very least suggests a link to the Sunlight Warriors. In the Catacombs, there's also a tomb holding the corpse of a member of the Blades of Darkmoon, and the statue behind it is identical to the one you fight in both the Undead Parish church and right near the Sunlight Altar. So we can establish some kind of link between the Blades of the Darkmoon and the Sunlight Warriors beyond them both just happening to serve (allegedly) the same master.

    Keep in mind that of all the godly covenants, only the Way of White was actually established by human beings; the Sunlight Warriors, Blades of the Darkmoon and the Princess Guard all answer to the gods directly rather than to their own organisational leaders. It's interesting to note that of the major gods we're aware of within Gwyn's immediate pantheon, there's one covenant that responds to each:

    • The Blades of the Darkmoon responds to Gwyndolin.
    • The Princess Guard responds to Gwynevere.
    • The Sunlight Warriors respond to the God of War, who may also be the Firstborn.


    If Solaire is indeed both the God of War and the Firstborn, it makes sense that he is the only NPC that directly harnesses lightning damage. It is also said that the God of War "watches over his warriors", which may be a poetic way of implying that he lends them power via lightning-based miracles. Furthermore, the Ring of the Sun's Firstborn provides a damage boost to miracles, and there are only five miracles which can usefully harness that ability. And given that a link between true divinity and lightning has been established, it makes sense that the Firstborn would be using that ring in conjunction with lightning-based miracles, no?

    The combination of the divine effect and magic damage we get via divine weapons appears to be a focusing of divine energies through human understanding rather than direct interaction with divine beings -- like an imperfect but still effective imitation. For something to truly exit the realm of human power and enter the realm of godly strength, it must harness lightning. That said, there's a counterpoint in this through the Greatsword of Artorias, which deals magical damage rather than lightning damage as its secondary type. You might also note that the Greatsword of Artorias resembles an unmarred Black Knight sword, right down to having extremely similar heavy attack animations. Perhaps the footknights of Gwyn weren't provided with the power of lightning, or perhaps they couldn't harness it with small exception? After all, neither the Black Knights nor the Silver Knights use lightning, but the latter have divine spears. It's also worth noting that the Silver Knight straight sword used to have a divine effect, but that was patched out in order to allow the weapon to be buffed.

    In short, this is how I consider the scenario:

    • To harness lightning is a unique ability of the gods or divine beings closely related to them.
    • Only the Giant Blacksmith in Anor Londo has the capacity to make lightning weapons (presumably, giants are divine beings?).
    • Only the Warriors of Sunlight covenant grants mortals (or general undead) access to lightning-based miracles.
    • The God of War left a lightning-based miracle at the tomb of Gwyn.
    • The Ring of the Sun's Firstborn boosts the damage dealt by miracles.
    • Of the five miracles that deal damage at the player's will, three of these are lightning-related.
    • Given that the Firstborn was a god, it's not unsound to assume that he used this ring to empower his lightning attacks.
    • With all this in mind, it appears likely that the God of War and the Firstborn are the same individual.
    • Of the NPCs we meet in the game, Solaire appears to be the most eligable; he is the only character who is a member of the Warriors of Sunlight and is the only NPC who harnesses lightning. In addition, the Sunlight Blade miracle tells us that the God of War left Anor Londo, and Solaire mentions that he chose to become undead. Perhaps this was an act of atonement?
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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:39 pm

    Siegfried. wrote:Personally, I believe the player character isn't the God of War because it simply seems so unlike FromSoftware to do that. The idea behind the creation of the player character is that they might be anyone from any background; simply one of many branded with the Darksign and therefore able to use souls to empower themselves. And empower oneself with enough souls, and you can exceed the gods already. We know that all undead can do this because souls are used as currency -- what use are souls that simply sit there, unused? So the player character can complete the objectives of the game because their determination allows them to harvest a large amount of souls. Nothing special, apart from our will to continue with and complete the game (representing the unyielding will of our undead character).

    So to make the player character inherently special would detract from one of the themes implied in the gameplay experience, which I'm sure FromSoftware are entirely aware of. If there's a God of War in the game, I don't see any reason he couldn't be the Firstborn -- and if the Firstborn is in the game, it's Solaire. The Sunlight Warriors connection hypothesis is old and well-worn at this point, but I still think it's the most likely option.

    Consider that lightning in this game is one of the markers of true divinity. Ornstein, a direct servant of Gwyn, is characterised by his weapon's lightning damage and its effectiveness against dragons. Gwyn himself harnessed lightning, and lightning weapons are only made by the Anor Londo blacksmith. Furthermore, lightning damage can only be harnessed by the player via that blacksmith or Faith-related abilities. The Sunlight Warriors covenant is the only covenant that provides lightning-based damage -- its power is directly connected to the gods of Anor Londo, and probably more specifically, Gwyn. Even Gwyndolin's Darkmoon covenant harnesses magic damage rather than lightning damage.

    Solaire is the only Sunlight Warrior we meet as an NPC and the only human we see harness lightning. We also find the Lightning Blade miracle in the tomb of Gwyn as a sort of posthumous parting gift, which at the very least suggests a link to the Sunlight Warriors. In the Catacombs, there's also a tomb holding the corpse of a member of the Blades of Darkmoon, and the statue behind it is identical to the one you fight in both the Undead Parish church and right near the Sunlight Altar. So we can establish some kind of link between the Blades of the Darkmoon and the Sunlight Warriors beyond them both just happening to serve (allegedly) the same master.

    Keep in mind that of all the godly covenants, only the Way of White was actually established by human beings; the Sunlight Warriors, Blades of the Darkmoon and the Princess Guard all answer to the gods directly rather than to their own organisational leaders. It's interesting to note that of the major gods we're aware of within Gwyn's immediate pantheon, there's one covenant that responds to each:

    • The Blades of the Darkmoon responds to Gwyndolin.
    • The Princess Guard responds to Gwynevere.
    • The Sunlight Warriors respond to the God of War, who may also be the Firstborn.


    If Solaire is indeed both the God of War and the Firstborn, it makes sense that he is the only NPC that directly harnesses lightning damage. It is also said that the God of War "watches over his warriors", which may be a poetic way of implying that he lends them power via lightning-based miracles. Furthermore, the Ring of the Sun's Firstborn provides a damage boost to miracles, and there are only five miracles which can usefully harness that ability. And given that a link between true divinity and lightning has been established, it makes sense that the Firstborn would be using that ring in conjunction with lightning-based miracles, no?

    The combination of the divine effect and magic damage we get via divine weapons appears to be a focusing of divine energies through human understanding rather than direct interaction with divine beings -- like an imperfect but still effective imitation. For something to truly exit the realm of human power and enter the realm of godly strength, it must harness lightning. That said, there's a counterpoint in this through the Greatsword of Artorias, which deals magical damage rather than lightning damage as its secondary type. You might also note that the Greatsword of Artorias resembles an unmarred Black Knight sword, right down to having extremely similar heavy attack animations. Perhaps the footknights of Gwyn weren't provided with the power of lightning, or perhaps they couldn't harness it with small exception? After all, neither the Black Knights nor the Silver Knights use lightning, but the latter have divine spears. It's also worth noting that the Silver Knight straight sword used to have a divine effect, but that was patched out in order to allow the weapon to be buffed.

    In short, this is how I consider the scenario:

    • To harness lightning is a unique ability of the gods or divine beings closely related to them.
    • Only the Giant Blacksmith in Anor Londo has the capacity to make lightning weapons (presumably, giants are divine beings?).
    • Only the Warriors of Sunlight covenant grants mortals (or general undead) access to lightning-based miracles.
    • The God of War left a lightning-based miracle at the tomb of Gwyn.
    • The Ring of the Sun's Firstborn boosts the damage dealt by miracles.
    • Of the five miracles that deal damage at the player's will, three of these are lightning-related.
    • Given that the Firstborn was a god, it's not unsound to assume that he used this ring to empower his lightning attacks.
    • With all this in mind, it appears likely that the God of War and the Firstborn are the same individual.
    • Of the NPCs we meet in the game, Solaire appears to be the most eligable; he is the only character who is a member of the Warriors of Sunlight and is the only NPC who harnesses lightning. In addition, the Sunlight Blade miracle tells us that the God of War left Anor Londo, and Solaire mentions that he chose to become undead. Perhaps this was an act of atonement?

    But solaire has humanity, implying he is a descendant of the pyrgmy. Thus not Gwyn.


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:29 pm

    Only read the first few posts so SORREH if im double posting but-

    Just wanted to say I love this theory, especially with Shkar's additions.

    The idea of the god of war fighting through the world, defeating the minions, battling his way to olympus (Anor Londo) then down through the underworld to defeat Hades *cough cough* I mean Gwyn.

    Thats just epic.

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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Nurgle523 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:58 pm

    I always thought of Gwyn as Zeus. With his famous weapon and all. This theories is interesting.

    About kaathe... both the primordial serpents seem to lie to you.. and everyone telling you to do what you need to do... But in reality they use words that they know you will interpret wrong.

    Like inheriting a certain someone's job. Well you dont get the job everyone wants. You get the maintenance work in a pool of bleach and ammonia mixed together. Locked in the pool.

    If you pay close attention and don't look too deep everyone is really quite honest. Maybe not truthful but honest in the sense that even though they may try to use you.. They tell you the truth in words.

    Well let's just say if they needed you to hammer nails they wouldn't hand you a soda can and some golf ball pike thingies. Along with misleading information.


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Siegfried. on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:13 pm

    Buggy Virus wrote:But solaire has humanity, implying he is a descendant of the pyrgmy. Thus not Gwyn.

    It's known that any undead can acquire more humanity through various means, and Solaire does mention that he chose to become undead. Perhaps humanity is a required resource for a god to make the transition towards becoming human? That would make sense, if you ask me. In fact, isn't it the case that ownership of humanity is the defining trait of regular humans and human-based undead? So by having humanity, a being may, despite their shape, size or abilities, be technically considered human.
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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by samster628 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:58 pm

    All humans (save primordial ones) are decended from the pigmy sort of because he invented humanity. Your charachter isn't the god of war as i said in another thread. You can choose your gender all undead can light bonfires (hence the rite of kindling). You are nothing special. also whether ether serpent tells a grain of truth is a mood point since there are no other sorces other than them. to make anything make sense i assume both serpents speak the truth. I think we have shkar Jr - has the ideas the the point thats 1 and the evidence thats another 1. But when he puts them together he gets 1+1=7! Don't get me wrong he's an interesting poster with some good ideas but he'll be the first to admit he is known for his crazy ideas and speculation.


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Knight Alundil on Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:07 pm

    samster628 wrote:All humans (save primordial ones)

    I assume by "primordial ones" you mean ancients like Gwyn, Chaos witch etc.

    But damn... "Primordial humans" makes my head spin lol

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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Shkar on Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:26 pm

    samster628 wrote:All humans (save primordial ones) are decended from the pigmy sort of because he invented humanity. Your charachter isn't the god of war as i said in another thread. You can choose your gender all undead can light bonfires (hence the rite of kindling). You are nothing special. also whether ether serpent tells a grain of truth is a mood point since there are no other sorces other than them. to make anything make sense i assume both serpents speak the truth. I think we have shkar Jr - has the ideas the the point thats 1 and the evidence thats another 1. But when he puts them together he gets 1+1=7! Don't get me wrong he's an interesting poster with some good ideas but he'll be the first to admit he is known for his crazy ideas and speculation.

    Think I've got crazy ideas now? I thought up several new ones last night.

    1. The bonfires are fueled by undead bones, not humanity. Shocker, I know, but the description for Homeward Bone spells it right out.

    2. The Rite of Kindling says that Undead IMITATE the process that Clerics use to kindle fires by sacrificing humanity. They imitate it through the sacrifice of humanity; the way the description is worded makes it sound like clerics don't NEED humanity to kindle bonfires.

    3. Havel probably isn't a human. He carries 94 in-game units (kilograms?) of weight, and he doesn't use his ring. Assuming that the in-game unit IS kilograms, that makes his equipment roughly 210 pounds. A normal medevil knight used 50 (!) pounds worth of equipment, and heavier, jousting equipment (wasn't used for fighting, and would have been terrible for it) weighed around 60!. Hence, he's super-human.

    4. Bonfires run off the bones of undead, there are wooden torches, and the remains of wooden bonfires in the ToG (as well as rope big grin). So wood still burns, obviously, but why don't the roots that run into the Izalith lava?


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by samster628 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:59 pm

    By primordial ones i mean the Humans before the flame. This does include the witches, Gwyn etc like you said. On this subject time for a mad theory of my own with some help from the starting movie (and shkar's last post) regarding the origins of the modern humans.
    As you see in the intro the primordial humans looked pretty much undead. It is my beleif that for an infinite length of time just about nothing happened. the world of archtree's and lakes being populated by stone everlasting dragons who (like the one at ash lake) did nothing. Humans looked like hollows. this is pretty much fact but here comes the outlandish theory.
    Primordial humans were exactly the same as the modern undead. Except they didn't move. But then there was fire and with fire came "disparity" this word means (straight from an Edictionary):lack of similarity or equality; inequality; difference:. Yes it means change. This back's that practically nothing happened before the flame.
    As we all know the flame created all power we know in modern Lorderan. Time for a bit more theory.
    Gwyn gave large parts of the soul he gained to family members (such as Lloyd) and maybe a few others who became gods. He also used his soul to create his army of knights (Much like the pigmy created humanity sprites (more on them later)).
    The witch of Iselith may have shared her soul with her daughters but appears to have used at least some of it to create pyromancy
    Nito made himself a big scary body and became a god of death like figure.
    The pigmy appears to have gained its dark soul (from the last of the fire) but in accordence to another one of my theorys in another thread (about his soul waxing as the others wane).
    Anyway as the dragon war happens and Many events come of it but here i just focus on the pigmy. As his soul Waxes he creates humanity which ether he binds to primordial humans or they bind it to themselves bit ether way it gives them intellegence (maybe its the sprites themselves thinking) and their new look. i think humanity can grow given manuses soul description which explains how later gen humains still have humanity bound to them. as Manus's power grows it gradually turns him insane but we leave him here to concentrate on modern humans.
    Yes they look like humans now but Don't forget humanity is ALIVE. Sometimes it can unbind leaving a body without humanity - hollows. Hollows begin to lose thir minds. they can ether bind some more humanity to themselves sharpish (since the knowlage of how to do this properly has been lost the humanity wont bind properly so they are still undead) or have a goal to focus on preventing them from losing their mind.
    Thats my theory on the orogins of humans and the undead. While its mostly speculation i can't see any obvious evidence against it so it seems plausable. Now to my thoughts on Shkars points

    1 YES but only in the physical sense. They burn out which is why you keep needing humanity to relight them. humanity and great souls act like fire because they came from fire. You can light fires using ordianary fire and wood but it lacks the special effects
    2 YES as can all humans using the humanity inside them.
    3 PLAUSABLE possibly havel is like part giant but i think he was just an exeptionally strong person or prehaps he used miracles to assist him (reading grat magic barrie miricle shows he is also a bishop)
    4 ... Its chaos it doesnt have to make sense. maybe the bed of chaos being born of fire makes it immune to fire?
    5 though i seem to be agreeing with these new ideas that seem to be quite sane (are you feeling ok?) let me make 1 thing clear. THE FIRST FLAME IS NOT THE SUN big grin

    Thats all for now folks


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by Shkar on Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:50 pm

    samster628 wrote:
    1 YES but only in the physical sense. They burn out which is why you keep needing humanity to relight them. humanity and great souls act like fire because they came from fire. You can light fires using ordianary fire and wood but it lacks the special effects
    2 YES as can all humans using the humanity inside them.
    3 PLAUSABLE possibly havel is like part giant but i think he was just an exeptionally strong person or prehaps he used miracles to assist him (reading grat magic barrie miricle shows he is also a bishop)
    4 ... Its chaos it doesnt have to make sense. maybe the bed of chaos being born of fire makes it immune to fire?
    5 though i seem to be agreeing with these new ideas that seem to be quite sane (are you feeling ok?) let me make 1 thing clear. THE FIRST FLAME IS NOT THE SUN big grin

    Thats all for now folks

    I find it's hard to debate theories I PERSONALLY believe are wrong (no dig at you, I just don't think anything existed BEFORE the flame)) unless the post is largely evidence, so I won't argue with most of your post, but I will talk about your response to me.

    1. "Kindling" is what you do to START a fire; "Fueling" is how you GROW and MAINTAIN a fire. By the definitions of the words, the process occurs in reverse.

    2. The game says that humans never found a use for humanity before they became undead. So how exactly would they use their humanity for the ritual? Ergo, they could kindle without humanity.

    3. He was around during the War against the Dragons, and there were no undead back then. This means that he has to have the longer lifespan of one of the other races.

    4. I had a thread a while back talking about the "Chaos" Flame, and I'm thinking that it actually just did it's job and isn't inherently "different". Everything that it changed it just made the opposite of what it was. The bulls and goats became strong instead of week and helpless, the Witch became a being of wood and earth instead of fire, Ceaseless has wounds that cause lava instead of wounds CAUSED by lava, etc.

    5. Yes it is!!!


    Oh, and watch the DLC references! silly


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    Re: What if. . .

    Post by samster628 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:12 am

    2 - they use the humanity inside them without knowing
    3 - re read mu post particularly on primordial humans
    4 - i have seen that thread and i agree with it but
    A i only think it works on living things (hence the architecture and stone buildings havent changed). It does actually make sense to set up shop by lava because the witches are patrons of fire spells.
    B this doesnt have anything to do with why the BoC doesnt burn
    5...

    PS no offence taken from that last post


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