Countering Buffs

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    IV_Mark_VI
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    Countering Buffs

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:53 pm

    Hey everyone,

    I normally host, and let people invade me. That being said, buffs aren't good as they're only 1 shot, and it's hard to escape a place like the forest as a host.

    Invaders are in a different boat; their fights are one-shots and not marathons, so they go to town on buffs.

    I find it difficult/annoying to defend against buffs. Most of the time I just backpedal and circle until it runs out, then try to stop them casting a second one.

    Advice? DMB = Great Magic Barrier, Sunlight Blade = ? Or maybe just having the right shield?

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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Spurgun on Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:56 pm

    The only effective counters that i know of is:
    1. BS them while they do it. Not very honorable, and i don't do it.
    2. Parry them. Most people become aggressive when they have a buff, so try to find their pattern and parry them. This wont work on experienced players though.
    3 GMB if they use DMB or CMW.

    You can also try to run away.
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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Tristan on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:05 pm

    lol! next we'll say is all weapons are cheap. yay fist'e cuff naked fights! Seriously, a buffed weapon just means you need to block or dodge better. If you notice anything notice how much stat investment it takes to take said buff. I noticed you targeted the faith based buffs. It takes at least 30 faith(give or take a few) to use them. That's 30 odd levels that could've been spent on hp. See?? They are glass cannons. Just play better. I always use buffs, but rarely get over 1300hp.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by robsthedon on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 pm

    Like spur said, a parry can work, new players do like to go for it before the buff runs out.
    Avoiding until the buff runs out is possible, try taking shots with a short or comp bow whilst avoiding.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Spurgun on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:14 pm

    Umbassa Zealot wrote:lol! next we'll say is all weapons are cheap. yay fist'e cuff naked fights! Seriously, a buffed weapon just means you need to block or dodge better. If you notice anything notice how much stat investment it takes to take said buff. I noticed you targeted the faith based buffs. It takes at least 30 faith(give or take a few) to use them. That's 30 odd levels that could've been spent on hp. See?? They are glass cannons. Just play better. I always use buffs, but rarely get over 1300hp.

    I don't think that buffs should be targeted. But you have to admit that they're a bit OP.
    First. It's not 30 levels, it's 16-22. And you might lose some vit, but you effectively double the damage of your weapon. So in 1 hit you can take away more vit than it cost you.
    They aren't glass cannons, not even near that.Does this look like a glass cannon?.


    This was all said in regards to sl 120 PvP. I have nothing against buffs in lower sl PvP. Since you actually sacrifice something in order to use them.
    So sorry if you usually PvP at lower sls.

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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Spurgun on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:15 pm

    I didn't say that you can try to dodge them since they (almost) every time get at least one hit. So it doesn't really work.
    And turtling can be hard if they're buffed a bleed weapon.
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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:18 pm

    Umbassa Zealot wrote:lol! next we'll say is all weapons are cheap. yay fist'e cuff naked fights! Seriously, a buffed weapon just means you need to block or dodge better. If you notice anything notice how much stat investment it takes to take said buff. I noticed you targeted the faith based buffs. It takes at least 30 faith(give or take a few) to use them. That's 30 odd levels that could've been spent on hp. See?? They are glass cannons. Just play better. I always use buffs, but rarely get over 1300hp.

    Less they're SoV, who invade down.

    Buffing may be stupidly powerful, but they're limited to the weapon they buffed. So have at it, it's usually a katana which you gotta strafe like mad or a rapier which they turtle with. Either way, range is your friend and spacing his lovely wife.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by DarkW17 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:26 pm

    People with buffs are always hyper aggresive to kill you before there buff runs out....this leads to R1 spamming and a easy parry!!

    If your not good at parrys....god help you lol


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:34 pm

    Who's saying to nerf buffs? Not sure where you're getting that from Umbassa.

    I have no issues with buffs being in the game; I just need to practice more. Once the buff runs out they're normally in trouble.

    It is the nature of the setup of the fight: the host is there to fight multiple opponents in succession normally (at least, where I fight) and as such, earns 50% of souls. This means that a buff isn't that helpful; if you're in the Forest or Kiln its difficult to homeward bone out of there as the fog gate is constantly on.

    Invaders know they are going in for a single fight, so can gear towards a single fight in which, either way it ends, their stock of spells is replenished.

    So, my style of play is marathon play. I also have access to buffs having 30 faith (SLB, didn't get DMB). So I just defend, and circle. Parrying I'm ok at, but find it's risky because weapons can deal so much damage that if you fail your parry you end up dead.

    So, solution? Practice parrys I suppose big grin

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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by callipygias on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:44 pm

    Umbassa Zealot wrote:lol! next we'll say is all weapons are cheap.
    Wtf? Did I miss a post or something?

    Anyway, back on track. You're taking a huge risk parrying a DMB who isn't spamming you. If their buff is maxed out even the partial damage that ill get through is brutal. Sunlight Blade is almost as bad (or good, depending on which side you're on).

    I don't like to run away because it feels wrong, but I will become VERY defensive and do a lot of backing away. If they aren't in super-hyper aggressive mode I can get enough space to get a shot off with my composite bow, but when my timings off even a little (which it often is) they'll hit me as my arrow hits them, and they do a lot more damage than me.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by DarkW17 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:49 pm

    Lol yup big grin

    Or see what type of weapon they are buffing and take the apropiate action...for instance if its a katana use a great sword and tank that 1st hit and stunlock them!

    Turtling is not a good idea buffs will usually transfer some dmg througfh the shield anyways...a bow works if you back away shoot them till it runs out!

    Practicing parrys as a host can be helpful as you may fight multiple people its nice to been able to finish one of them quickly!!

    Parrys can be risky but with enough practice they become less risky...you have to know the tricks for each weapon tho...ill go back to katanas as that's what A LOT of people buff cuz of the speed...you always wanna take the 1st hit then parry asap and you will get the parry everytime if they spam a 2nd attack!!


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:55 pm

    I back-pedal and strafe at the same time, and dodge either backwards or to the side when they attack. I don't run, as normally I don't have the level cleared of enemies, and I find back-pedalling safer. Normally I can avoid most damage this way, as long as I don't back myself against a wall, tree, corner, off a cliff, etc.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Tristan on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:05 pm

    Spurgun wrote:
    Umbassa Zealot wrote:lol! next we'll say is all weapons are cheap. yay fist'e cuff naked fights! Seriously, a buffed weapon just means you need to block or dodge better. If you notice anything notice how much stat investment it takes to take said buff. I noticed you targeted the faith based buffs. It takes at least 30 faith(give or take a few) to use them. That's 30 odd levels that could've been spent on hp. See?? They are glass cannons. Just play better. I always use buffs, but rarely get over 1300hp.

    I don't think that buffs should be targeted. But you have to admit that they're a bit OP.
    First. It's not 30 levels, it's 16-22. And you might lose some vit, but you effectively double the damage of your weapon. So in 1 hit you can take away more vit than it cost you.
    They aren't glass cannons, not even near that.Does this look like a glass cannon?.


    This was all said in regards to sl 120 PvP. I have nothing against buffs in lower sl PvP. Since you actually sacrifice something in order to use them.
    So sorry if you usually PvP at lower sls.

    The whole problem with your hypothetical build is that you would need to pigeonhole the entire scenario to effectively make the point your trying to achieve. At SL120 30 faith DMB is just as strong as any other weapon. 700 (give or take some) AR is not enough to 1hko and in most cases 2hko anyone. It will take 3 hits to damage someone enough to kill them and that's if they are perfect hits. If they block it's reduced, GMB makes it abesolutely useless, and they are very capable of reducing the damage through a dodge or parry.

    If you want to talk about an abundance of power in practical terms raise your faith to 40-50 (mostly 50) and see what kind of sacrifices you need to make. Your example doesn't even consider the most popularly buffed weapon into consideration.

    The only reason anything is ever "OP" is because people don't like to lose. It's a very natural feeling, but justified for change? No!

    Go ahead though, complain about faith as a stat until it's utterly useless and removed. This game will now be like every other rpg. This game is being ruined by the people who can't adapt to adversity which saddens me. I'll just move on to better things.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:08 pm

    I think it's balanced by the souls it dolls out for being a host vs an invader. I think this was part of their calculation.

    Btw, my forest hosts always increase in level. I don't stop at 120, so for me, the equation balances out.

    Duels/invaders have one shots so they can use buffs as well.

    Hmm... Think it's time to improve my PvP by becoming the Forest invader instead of the host.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:57 pm

    How's this for ya, umbasa?

    Faith has always been a bit wonky, I always saw buffing as a trade-off to the very bad pool of faith scaling weapons, with the only decent one being the dark moon bow (my opinion there)


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by Tristan on Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm

    you're still pigeonholing the genneral idea. without those items you have 1283hp. When I can do roughly that much at SL67 and only take half a person's health away I am unconvinced that it's op.


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    Re: Countering Buffs

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:50 pm

    So what if you have 1200? I rock 1200 HP on my 99 and I've no problem with killing most people. The only balancing factor to buffs is they've a minute time limit, which makes people get a bit nervous about ending the fight as soon as possible.

    Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I never liked Faith. It's spell set is all over the map, and ALOT of hate gets directed towards certain miracles due to how some players have come to use them. I've adopted the 'buff at your own risk' way of it. I won't rush over and bs you if you buff, but don't expect to have a glitterstick without consequences.


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