The Chaos Flame is not evil.

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    Shkar
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    The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:13 pm

    Well, not necessarily, anyway. All the flame did was its job. Like the first flame, it created opposites, in just about everything it touched.

    1. The witch of Izalith, being a woman attuned very closely to the flame, became a being of wood, the "opposite" of flame. Instead of controlling it, she became controlled by it.

    2. Quelaag and her sister were beautiful women of a fairly unique and small race (to the best we know). Instead, they became hideous spider monstrosities that lay thousands of eggs.

    3. Ceaseless Discharge has wounds that cause lava, instead of having wounds CAUSED BY lava.

    4. The goats and bulls, instead of being small, weak, and helpless, are instead giant, powerful monsters.

    5. The Dragon Gargoyles are animated, "living" things instead of ordinary, immobile statues.

    Here's where it starts to get a bit hypothetical:

    6. The water in Izalith (because they wouldn't have settled that close to open magma) instead became burning magma, capable of burning a human to cinders instead of giving cool life.

    7. If we assume that the two daughters who became the orbs you destroy in the Bed of Chaos fight were the oldest, then they go from being one of the witch's greatest allies and weapons, to being her greatest restraints and enemies.

    8. The daughter outside the boss room may have been going to stop her mother (by killing her if she had too), and now guards her with her life instead.


    Now call me crazy, but if you think about it in those terms it almost seems like the flame did exactly what it was supposed to, just like the first flame. It created opposites of what was originally there, and made beings stronger then they had been. And in the end, what is chaos but simply having too many variables, like having more neutral states turned into polar opposites?


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by Tzai on Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:55 pm

    I always thought that, for the most part, the Witch was right in her methods of recreating the first flame. The first flame upon coming into existence created God, Humans, and disparity between things that were almost indistinguishable in the Age of Ancients. What I don't think she took into account is what would be created if you made a flame and what is exactly needed to make it. The demons I feel are incomplete in nature because they don't really do anything other than protect the Bed of Chaos. They don't bring anything else to the world and almost warp what was originally set into place by the first flame. I think this is due to the fact that she only used one soul. I think in this case making a flame of that caliber is closely related to making a Philosopher's stone in Full Metal Alchemist. You need hundreds if not thousands of souls to make something that creates such complexity such as the first flame. One soul wasn't going to cut it and because of that it consumed her and probably a few others to create a incomplete flame.

    Now why do you think I think this is the case? Because of one god, Nito. I believe N.i.t.o. is proof of the first souls to be sacrificed to create something so powerful. Think about it.
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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:09 pm

    I like the idea Shkar, and your hypothetical points make a lot of sense. Howver if its evil or nto depends on one thing. Was the flame created correctly and just doing what is was meant to or was the process sabotaged by chaos?


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:00 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:I like the idea Shkar, and your hypothetical points make a lot of sense. Howver if its evil or nto depends on one thing. Was the flame created correctly and just doing what is was meant to or was the process sabotaged by chaos?

    Whoever said chaos is bad? In any natural system there will always be an unknown variables to cause entropy. The '2nd' flame may have been what the first flame would have become, if the souls of lords weren't removed.


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:52 pm

    I don't really see what you guys mean. The point is simply that the Chaos Flame was only called that because it created new variables for everything. Which, admittedly, would make things chaotic. It's no more evil than a hurricane or evolution.

    The Demons attack because you are in their territory or because they used to be docile like most domesticated animals and the flame caused them to act the opposite, which would be hostile. The Chaos Flame Ember implies that the chaos flame was actually being utilized before Izalith was abandoned, so either the change was gradual, or they were using it before the witch did her thing.

    That said, has anybody noticed how all the demon weapons refer to their wielders as the "lesser ____ demons"? Where are the normal/greater demons?


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:58 pm

    You kill a 'greater' Taurus demon and Capra demon in the burg. Ever wonder why they're non-boss counterparts are.... a wee bit smaller? I imagine they had 'greater' versions of ALL the demon enemies, but couldn't fit them in properly.


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by Shkar on Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:03 am

    cloudyeki wrote:You kill a 'greater' Taurus demon and Capra demon in the burg. Ever wonder why they're non-boss counterparts are.... a wee bit smaller? I imagine they had 'greater' versions of ALL the demon enemies, but couldn't fit them in properly.

    The only issue I see is that at least the "Greater" Taurus Demon still drops the same weapon as the lesser ones (so I've heard). This would imply that it is still one of the "lesser" demons.


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by cloudyeki on Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:05 am

    Yes, and I've gotten the DGM from the capra boss fight (was worthless cuz it was a dex build) but that's probably just another gameplay thing unrelated to the actual lore.


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by Shkar on Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:06 am

    cloudyeki wrote:Yes, and I've gotten the DGM from the capra boss fight (was worthless cuz it was a dex build) but that's probably just another gameplay thing unrelated to the actual lore.

    Could be, or it might not be big grin


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:30 am

    I think Chaos was a pre existing entity. I think the Witch was an original "beast" of chaos. Sure the chaos flame brought about the main "army" of demons but they existed beforehand.


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    Re: The Chaos Flame is not evil.

    Post by samster628 on Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:01 pm

    Shkar wrote:Well, not necessarily, anyway. All the flame did was its job. Like the first flame, it created opposites, in just about everything it touched.

    1. The witch of Izalith, being a woman attuned very closely to the flame, became a being of wood, the "opposite" of flame. Instead of controlling it, she became controlled by it.

    2. Quelaag and her sister were beautiful women of a fairly unique and small race (to the best we know). Instead, they became hideous spider monstrosities that lay thousands of eggs.

    3. Ceaseless Discharge has wounds that cause lava, instead of having wounds CAUSED BY lava.

    4. The goats and bulls, instead of being small, weak, and helpless, are instead giant, powerful monsters.

    5. The Dragon Gargoyles are animated, "living" things instead of ordinary, immobile statues.

    Here's where it starts to get a bit hypothetical:

    6. The water in Izalith (because they wouldn't have settled that close to open magma) instead became burning magma, capable of burning a human to cinders instead of giving cool life.

    7. If we assume that the two daughters who became the orbs you destroy in the Bed of Chaos fight were the oldest, then they go from being one of the witch's greatest allies and weapons, to being her greatest restraints and enemies.

    8. The daughter outside the boss room may have been going to stop her mother (by killing her if she had too), and now guards her with her life instead.


    Now call me crazy, but if you think about it in those terms it almost seems like the flame did exactly what it was supposed to, just like the first flame. It created opposites of what was originally there, and made beings stronger then they had been. And in the end, what is chaos but simply having too many variables, like having more neutral states turned into polar opposites?



    this bar number 8 is an exellent theory. the whole nanture of chaos is that its unprdictable and makes these opposite creatures.

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