Lagstabbers, a controversy

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    Casdman
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    Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Casdman on Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:08 am

    So after getting my *** BS'ed 5 times by this one guy who was lagging, I was pretty pissed. Then I though about what he must be seeing, does he just think my reactions are slow? does he know hes lagging and is abusing it?

    After think about this a little while i coudnt really come to conclusion, so I did the only other thing i could think of, i brought it to the internet!
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Toastfacekillah on Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:16 am

    I don't get how lag works in this game. In my very simplistic knowledge, I thought that in P2P lag was determined by the host consoles upload speed and if you are host and someone invades you, you shouldn't be lagging. The advantage should also be yours as you are seeing the true picture whereas he is not. How does someone take advantage if it is they who is lagging and not you? I'm happy for someone to call me a dumbass if this is completely wrong.


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:31 am

    I have been accused of lagstabing. Honestly no matter what everyone says I don't think there is a way to "abuse" lag. From my point of view when I've been accused the person had horrible reaction time and left themselves wide open. I've heard a bunch of different theories on how to create lag in your favor but honestly it seems like a bit too much trouble to get a few easy wins in pvp.

    I'm pretty sick of the term lagstabing. It seems to be thrown around any time a match is won with a bs. If people wanna see some real lag check out Demons Souls PvP video's.

    Now, prepare for everyone's two cents about lag, backstabs and pvp "honor" winking


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Dj-B-Man-Jr on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:47 am

    ErrJon6661 wrote:If people wanna see some real lag check out Demons Souls PvP video's.


    I've only had a few demon's souls pvp matches and i've seen videos, yet i don't see why people would complain about demon's lag, i'd prefer sliding a few feet and getting back stabbed then being completely teleported and being back stabbed after 3 rolls, imo demon's lag is almost nothing compared to dark souls

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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by sids09 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:50 am

    I'm pretty sure I'm the laggiest person on PSN. Four out of every five summons I attempt fail, which unless I'm mistaken is because of horrid lag....dunno. Anyway when I'm lagging, the invaders who attack me seem to animate normally, but their position on the map changes disproportionately to their speed. Like they might run in place for a second, and then zip past me. Or I might swing and connect with the graphic, but the actual toon isn't where his image is showing up (or, alternatively, on his screen I'm not where I think I am, and I'm swinging at space).

    Traditionally what you see displayed is your system's best guess at where the opponent will be X seconds from his last known position, where X is your latency. Technically, neither player (even with fast connections) is seeing where the other one ACTUALLY is. This all gets reconciled.... somewhere, somehow, point is the graphics aren't accurate even when they look like they are.

    But sometimes it's obvious. I saw a guy freeze-framing all the way across the forest once.... couldn't help but hack-n-slash him to death and shrug over the body.
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by lucanious on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:23 am

    no dude, demon souls lag was way worse. i remember setting up a fight with a friend who thought he was a badass. his words "im probably the best player at soul level 90." so i made a character, devine mirdan hammer, cursed weapon, adjucators shield. and i think i had old kings armor, eternal warriors ring and the ring of great strength (havels pretty much) and every hit i landed didnt register on his screen, i had like 3 BS and a few parries that did no damage. i finally killed him but i was so disgusted i havent played it since. dark souls lag is nothing by comparison. the only times a BS doesnt do damage is when the guy was in mid swing hitting me or vice versa, im assuming stunlock
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:52 am

    That sliding backstab is the same thing as getting backstabbed after rolling away. I've been backstabed from across a room in Demons souls. I've had times where The enemy was in front of me, and then all the sudden I'm turned around right in front of them getting bsed. So many people say that demon's souls had better pvp. I wonder why they're still playing dark souls then. With my internet Demon's was unplayable online. Dark Souls is just a bit laggy from time to time.


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:44 am

    Lately, the lag has seemingly been worse - in my experience, one of my friend's experience, and several people on here, actually. We all agree that it was about last Friday or so that **** started to go awry...but none of us can figure out why.

    In general, I'm not sure how lag works...I've definitely been lagstabbed, etc. by invaders, and even had invaders seemingly levitate across rooms (presumably they ran, but my game didn't have time to process that and so they just seem to float).

    I don't think many of the people who 'lagstab' know that they are. There are some, especially when it's extreme lag, that can use a 'lag switch', or even a poor man's lag switch (start downloading a bunch of ****, etc.), but when it's minor it's more often than not simply unintentional.


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by strangejoy on Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:17 am

    I agree with Errjon. I doubt that there are many players out there intentionally lagging. Furthermore, "lagstabs" will appear just like ordinary backstabs to the player performing them. Don't get me wrong, I'm as frustrated as anyone when I get backstabbed in the face or when I get phantom damage from someone who appears to have never hit me. But I wouldn't ever accuse someone of "lagstabbing."

    One caveat: When you notice that your opponent is teleporting all over the place or you see some other sure sign of lag, you probably shouldn't do an obnoxious gesture if you win. Winning and losing with high lag is kind of random; it's not the sort of win that's suitable for gloating.
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Casdman on Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:40 am

    looking at all the posts and knowing that there isnt really a way to abuse lag makes me feel a bit better. now i'm off to Google to find a way to reduce lag, that or going out to buy a Ethernet cable
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Brokewilly on Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:06 am

    Everyone should remember that some PVP'ers actually purchase devices which can introduce lag on purpose for online game play. See this web site: www.lagswitch.net.

    I am not saying network contraints can not cause involuntary lag but sometimes I believe the PVP'er are doing this on purpose for an advantage. I even had a guy who used lag while casting homing missles and was able to hit me with his katana from several feet away since my defense tactic was to evade the home missiles by keeping distance between me and him. He texted me griefing when I killed him and I texted back accusing him of lagging on purpose. He noticeably did not respond to my accusation.



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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by S_Hawk on Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:55 pm

    It's hard to know if they are really lagstabbing or just backstabbing and we have just an awful connection (like me, all the bs i have recivied are the 2 meter teleport type), but it's more anoying when you hit somebody when they are "frozen" after a missed zweihander hit and they suffer no damage o 1 (even when they eat the attack completely), and the animation of rolling/blocking happens 2 seconds later, or worse, they heal, you attack them and the same sh*t happens
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by Dj-B-Man-Jr on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:00 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:That sliding backstab is the same thing as getting backstabbed after rolling away. I've been backstabed from across a room in Demons souls. I've had times where The enemy was in front of me, and then all the sudden I'm turned around right in front of them getting bsed. So many people say that demon's souls had better pvp. I wonder why they're still playing dark souls then. With my internet Demon's was unplayable online. Dark Souls is just a bit laggy from time to time.

    i just saw a demon's souls lag montage, holy. ****. i apologize dude..wow that lag was insane 0_0

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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by sids09 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:03 pm

    S_Hawk wrote:It's hard to know if they are really lagstabbing or just backstabbing and we have just an awful connection (like me, all the bs i have recivied are the 2 meter teleport type), but it's more anoying when you hit somebody when they are "frozen" after a missed zweihander hit and they suffer no damage o 1 (even when they eat the attack completely), and the animation of rolling/blocking happens 2 seconds later, or worse, they heal, you attack them and the same sh*t happens

    Or if you see him about to heal and you launch a jumping power-attack, two-handing your MGS, expecting incredible damage, and the hit lands perfectly, but then suddenly he's stabbing you in the back because he was never there in the first place.

    I've had exactly one pvp match decided by skill, and it was a toon who came to help me in the painted world that won it. Literally every other invasion/fight/whatever has been decided by lag. It's...... yeah....
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:07 pm

    I think the real thing behind "lagstabbing" is that if people lose unfairly it can't just be a minor error in the game or the other players skill. They have to blame it on something else or blame the other player of cheating to feel better about the loss. I notice a lot of people on the forums who talk about pvp always call backstabbers lagstabbers. Its to the point where builds who focus on critical hits (ie backstab builds) are discriminated against and called cheaters.


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by eneq on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:28 pm

    Very unlikely that the players actually abuse lag intentionally, I just think they are getting used to play with a higher lag than yourself and thus it seems they are always ahead of you.

    I dueled this griefer in burg and he would basically be behind me when I got the invasion notice, however I kept at it for a few duels and it all comes down to estimating where he is given his lag. So with a trusty R2 with the G Halberd he went down and I never saw him again (that said he had stabbed me to death 4 times before that).

    This all comes down to how the game handles network latency however, the positional information from the other character is streamed to the host (non glowy player). Lag can then occur by either the connection between them being slow or that its dropping data and it all comes down to how the game process these scenarios.


    Some games infer some kind of positional checks on the data and resets the other players position which is penalizing the player on the bad connection whereas some other just take the last data available (remember that the host can get X amount of unique positional updates) which would look like the other player warps.

    I simply think that DkS developers are a bit lazy at some times and that their handling of lag is the root cause but that said there are not any specific perfect solution to this problem.

    /Q
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by eneq on Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:50 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:I think the real thing behind "lagstabbing" is that if people lose unfairly it can't just be a minor error in the game or the other players skill. They have to blame it on something else or blame the other player of cheating to feel better about the loss. I notice a lot of people on the forums who talk about pvp always call backstabbers lagstabbers. Its to the point where builds who focus on critical hits (ie backstab builds) are discriminated against and called cheaters.

    Its not cheating but its cheap, maybe they should be called cheapzors instead of cheatzors. The reason its cheap is that the damage output is so high that one hit basically seals the match and also that it is quite hard for newbies to defend against.

    Two BS dueling thats ok imo since both knows the tricks of the trade and how to defend against it at which times it becomes more about tricking each other.

    Thats why I never use BS unless 1) They are clearly going for it or have BS me already 2) Gang bangers, at which time its a great way to get out of dodge with some feel good feeling (and as a PS no chain BS, thats just wrong).

    /Q
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:02 am

    Cheap? I think not. Granted, there are "cheap" ways to backstab such as pivots. And not everyone knows how to defend against certain kinds of backstabs. But before you call it cheap think of this. Excluding pivot backstabbers, most backstabs are easy to punish. Keeping a cast of WoG or Great Combustion will stop most backstabbers in their tracks, same with a well timed swing with a sweeping weapon.

    Your point about newbies not being able to defend against it. Its Dark Souls. You die. A lot of people don't know how to defend against WoG. Tough luck. A lot of people don't know how to deal with a guy using the BKGA. Tought luck. Its all about learning. If you face something enough times you'll learn how to defend against it. For example, in PvE you get jumped by a mob and die. You can cry cheap and put the game down or you can learn how that mob works. PvP is the same in many ways. You get bsed you can cry cheap and stop playing. Or you can look past it and learn how to defend against it. For the longest time I've thought that the BKGA was over powered. Nearly every time I fought against someone using it I died. It does a lot of damage to my character, its fast and it causes stunlock. What did I do? For a while I did what a lot of people do and cried cheap. Then I sat down and learned how to defend against it. THe moveset, the speeds and finally the timing needed to parry the damn thing. Now its just like any other weapon to me. Backstabbers work the same way. There are clear indicators of someone trying to backstab. It takes some time to learn but when you do you can punish nearly every backstab. And chain bs is avoidable, EWGF has a video on it.

    This is however where people say that the lag comes into play and helps backstabbers get the bs. Truth is, lag gives any sort of attack, whether it be a weapon, a bs, or magic an advantage.


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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by eneq on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:25 am

    You have quite a lot of point that are valid imo but just as BS is cheap imo so is that you can actually poisetank and stunlock a player to defeat cheap.

    BTW I would be considered a poise tank myself and rely a lot on the heavy hit to get the stunlock in, but in some regards its kinda cheap.

    Any attack that due to lag (ie. reducing the reaction window) can cause a PvP session to combust in failure imo cheapens the win.

    Riposte for instance I dont really consider cheap, i laugh out loud when that happens and says gg and blame myself for being to predictable. BS tho I see them coming straight atm trying to tank the first hit and just get behind for a killshot, thats cheap imo.

    Now if one reduced the damage by half for instance, requiring maybe 4 BS in one session to bring someone down, then I would consider that well played by the BS party since he can successfully navigate and get those shots in.

    But someone who does a BS followed by a cheapshot to get a kill makes me atleast laugh and not really consider it a loss...

    Anyway, you can spout away your opinion but if you actually looked at the highest gripes everyone has about DkS its BS in the top.
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:37 am

    I think I'll start a poll. We'll see what the "highest gripe" is.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t1083-most-hated-thing-in-pvp#top

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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by SiR10iN on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:15 pm

    Casdman wrote:So after getting my *** BS'ed 5 times by this one guy who was lagging, I was pretty pissed. Then I though about what he must be seeing, does he just think my reactions are slow? does he know hes lagging and is abusing it?

    After think about this a little while i coudnt really come to conclusion, so I did the only other thing i could think of, i brought it to the internet!

    Honestly, what the person who is doing the stabbing sees is a perfectly legitimate backstab that they just pulled off. In reality, they really do deserve to get that stab too. When the stab animation actually starts, the game skips the frames right before that stab on the victims screen so that the stab animation happens at the exact same time on both players screen. They should have probably not have done that and let the second before the stab play out on the victims screen so that people don't think that this is some kind of dirty trick worthy of its own cute name, lagstabs. These backstabs are entirely legitimate, plain and simple. The only time lag is a real issue is where during the actual fight, rather than JUST during the bs animation, the enemy player is skipping around the screen rubberbanding like crazy. In a situation like that then you just disregard the fight and move on to the next one. However, most of these lagstab complaints occur after fights where there was no real perceived lag by either player at any point during the actual fight EXCEPT during the backstab animation. That is just the way the game is designed so the stab happens at the exact same time on both player's screens, and in order to do that it skips the couple of frames that show that the stabber legitimately got you.
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    Re: Lagstabbers, a controversy

    Post by eneq on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:39 pm

    Casdman wrote:looking at all the posts and knowing that there isnt really a way to abuse lag makes me feel a bit better. now i'm off to Google to find a way to reduce lag, that or going out to buy a Ethernet cable

    You on WiFi from the console? I would venture a guess that somethings in your radio environment has changed, maybe you got too many devices on the same channel or there is a device that causes a lot of interference noise.

    If you got a Android phone you can run apps like wifi analyzer and see how crowded your environment is and select channel accordingly.

    Best option is ofcourse to go wired...

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