Why is healing cheap?

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    Tolvo
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:58 pm

    Or consider fighting against ninja flippers all with bows running away hitting you, with 99 humanity and healing spells just beating you through a war of attrition, your own game. This concept could pretty much ruin dueling if it became too widespread. It's widespread enough as is.

    Also the reason why TwoP is often frowned upon is because of backstabbing, as well greatshields will mean nothing because of dead angling and spells. So, it wouldn't promote turtling anymore. In fact, it would only really promote people being able to pivot and dead angle themselves, or pivot and parry, or spell spam.

    Also if you don't duel why does this even matter to you?

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:10 pm

    Well I haven't had much experience with dead angling; I find the concept cheap. I mean, you can't block because someone turns their back on you? Programming exploit it seems to me; I don't think I'd do that.

    Outside of duels, it's considered cheap. I just want to get a full understanding why.

    I don't think it'd promote attrition wars as I have a bow as well and much better armour.

    Can you backstab someone 2Handing a big weapon with TWoP? Or can they just keep attacking you tanking the hits? It screws over the light/fast/med. shield users for sure. Because it slows down their movement, not their swing rate. Seems like it'd be the same scenario was someone trying to backstab fish my Tarkus build, which I can just two hand and start swinging or give a kick or something.

    Edit:

    I'm curious. I would want to duel no holds barred and see how it goes for awhile. See what kind of meta game it develops. Anyone interested in starting a noholds barred duelling league?
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:13 pm

    Just for an example, there are ways to make bow builds that hit for over 1k, headshot for more. When healing you stand still, you'll be fat rolling while the other person is using a DWGR with e same armor as you. So, unless they miss every single shot on a fat roller, they're going to out damage out, out last you, deny your healing, and have greater mobility. So I wouldn't advise just going bow to bow with how you are playing. Unless they are dead angling, yes I can backstab someone if I have used TwoP on them easily. Especially if they attack, as soon as they attack it means they are getting BS'ed. Dead angling is a very good counter to turtles who hide behind shields, and parry turtles. So they are just counters.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:16 pm

    Mark, that no holds barred league would equal backstabs for 3k damage :roll:


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:17 pm

    Really? Why? Would it be a DMB/TWoP fest, with enough armour to tank hits going for a lagstab?

    And I'm interested in this bow build that hits for 1k. Legit and no glitches? Or buffing it when it's not meant to be buffed?
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:19 pm

    You don't have to tank any hits when going for a backstab, you just roll BS them, especially if they are slow moving. Such as if you have them under the effect of your TwoP. Even if they have WotG, you just roll through it and BS them for usually a one shot.

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:20 pm

    Hmm. Well where are these players that can do that? I haven't encountered them. I invade and defend all over the place, and I haven't found a player that can just flip BS me, just like that.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:21 pm

    I'm not sure how you haven't, it super common. It's called a roll BS, it's very rare that you find players who can't do that.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:26 pm

    Its legitimate mark - the murakumo hits for 1.4k on that build aswell... on full giants.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:30 pm

    For the 1k bow build: is it a 40str/dex build? Same build sa the murakumo?

    Hmm. Well maybe I shoudl really try duelling to get a better understanding, or maybe the random fights I do aren't as skilled. People have fished me for BS, or attempted to get me to strike in order to roll bs me, and I have done roll bs's... they aren't that hard if your opponent has predictable behaviour.

    But I find I only get nailed due to lag most of the time. Sometimes I take ab ad swing and get punished, and kudos for that.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:33 pm

    Indeed, more experience always leads to a better understanding. I'd say try out dueling and see how it goes. Personally I can't duel anymore because I'm just to much of an Anti-Ganker. It's the only form of combat I really know anymore. I'd say find the type of battle you really enjoy and stick to it, and learn it well. Also outside of duels there is no taboo on healing. So I'm not sure who was complaining to you about that.

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:37 pm

    There's always people complaining on XBox.

    Lots of griefers too, which I always msg some hate towards. I don't mind dying, but when they kill someone brand new to the game... makes a frustrating game more frustrating, and gives a bad attitude. If they invaded with stock equipment, fine. But I guess the metagame is BB glitch for a lot of players, and dark wraiths have adapted.

    I honestly don't know. But I do know that beating on someone who is 2hrs into the game isn't nice.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:40 pm

    No it isn't, unfortunately there is little chance of survival with stock gear anyway with the amount of anti-griefer summons. It's a sad state of affairs all around really.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by dancash1808 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:49 pm

    Wait a second mark your on xbox? we should fight some. maybe I can show why I have a problem with healing I'll go fast you go tank. I maintain it will give me more of an advantage than it will you. tanks rely on hitting heavily rarely normally. if your hitting rarely I can just pop a humanity.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:18 am

    Rudmed wrote:
    I agree with this.

    Humanity and divine blessing muling has seriously stunted the balance of the game.

    They should put a cap on the amount a player can have on a toon at one time for certain items. And other than that fix muling and BB duping.

    If they do that then the game balance tilts another way. Once I use that item...its gone. Eventually you will have an invader that can't heal except for miracles. While host is just chugging estus flasks.

    So if you do that then you are forcing all the invaders who want to have a chance to either hit and run when things go against them. Doing this would allow the host to heal (which becomes chance and you pray they don't have many estus flasks), force invaders to chainstab, and other cheap tactics.

    You take something out to 'balance the game' then something else isn't balanced. This is the world we live in.

    Hosts should have the advantage. They have the entire world against them.

    And when I attacked humanity and divine glitches, I was going after the fact that they are easily obtained and glitched.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:52 am

    My latest ephiphony is that nothing is exceptionally cheap and everyone will call you on whatever doesnt grant them utillity thus unless they win and derive utility then its all cheap.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by 727 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:51 am

    as stated Mark outside of dueling, healing is a generally accepted option. and as far as ive seen on xbox the only viable dueling spot is the burg and possibly the kiln (havnt checked in a while) an even theyre both becoming ganker inhabited.
    as far as healing in general i find it more enjoyable to not heal. it makes you more alert and overall, a better player.

    id love to tour you around the pvp maps sometime if youd like. show you the good (burg) the bad (kiln) and the ugly (forest)

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by isthefridge on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:19 am

    Lets consider the rules set by the game. Most covenant rules have the "win by any means necessary" and the forest hunters have no rules. Healing would be apart of that mentality and Bowing doesnt remove that fact. With that said why would anyone expect a fair duel from a DW, DM or a FH? they arent pre-arranged.

    Rss are really the only emblem in the game that suggests fair play.

    Mark whhy raise this question if your not into dueling? Im going to make an assumption that your a healer whether its called for or not. and your looking for justification for your actions due to the hate mail you recieved. It sounds as if your suggesting everyone pigeon hole themselves into builds that may not fit their play style just because you cant comprehend the gripe against healing. Yet to all the valid points you still raise the question. which would lead back to my former assumption. I suggest you join a FC. Follow some of the Streamers on Twitch and watch and participate and see what it means to enjoy Honor duels.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Eolan on Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:22 am

    Healing is pretty unsporting man, ultimately its because you've lost and you want a round two without dying.

    That person bested you but you want a "retry". Just take the death and invade/host someone else.

    The truth is people don't heal because its boring to drain and drag out fights for the duration of their estus flasks and your humanity. Its a perilous game man. just take death. "Prepare to Die" remember?

    In a fight you cant just go and regain your busted nose with a potion, so people wanna fight properly and not have to chase you about for 45 mins where you heal every time you get battered by their good work.

    On top of that spellcasters have enough to kill you maybe twice, but if you heal after that you've won because your a host.

    Divine blessings are skanky. To be frank all of these things would probably be less frowned on (bar estus) if they werent glitched to 99. I think you get 2 or three a play through lol.

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 am

    Yeah I see it from a pure spellcaster point of view, the rest, not as much. If people pop a ton of humanity, that's going to lead to a lot of farming. No one wants to do a lot of farming, so I would think it'd balance out in the end.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Rifter7 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:56 am

    just chainstab them when they pop estus/humanity and divine blessing yourself in between.

    that usually pisses them off. suddenly the rules matter to them when the hatemail starts coming in.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:10 pm

    I genuinly can't understand this hate for healing. DeS was full of it Darkmoon Grass and all that..... why now is it such an issue. I can duel as hourably as the next guy at any time but I fail to see how healing would ruin a fight.

    I dont heal btw unless im against gankers or unless my opponent does but that doesnt mean Ill condemn them for it or use less that 'honourable' tactics because of thier decisions.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Rifter7 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:48 am

    well it was easier to get ohko's or close to it in de's tho.. that and second chance and phantoms healing was pretty standard because by the games design everyone had access to herbs.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:53 am

    I liked that mechanic. It was awesome to turn the tables of someone because of second chance!


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by xelectrowolfx on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:06 am


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