Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

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    Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:04 am

    Edit: This was a bad theory and I feel bad.

    I'm just going to lay it out up front and I hope you find the theory interesting/absurd/batshit-crazy enough you will read the wall of text to explain it.

    Gwyndolin's story is a lie and we all believed it, as anyone in Lordran would. The illusion of Gwynevere is not his creation and his covenant is serving Seath's ends rather than his own. He is under the control of Seath, directly or indirectly, via a synthetic Sunlight Maggot, the Crown of the Dark Sun. His story is partially inspired by a medieval work of fiction, which in itself is an illusion within an illusion being used to achieve particular political outcomes through manipulation.

    Yeah...Now to begin. Lets start with the basics.

    Gwyndolin
    Gwyndolin is the last born of Lord Gwyn and the last deity left in Anor Londo. Since his power was found to be closely tied to the moon he was raised as a daughter. He was the only remaining God of Anor Londo, and protects his Father's grave from others. However, he has been corrupted due to the changes of events in Anor Londo, mainly by the Duke, Seath the Scaleless.

    Alright, so we have already gathered that he got his tentacle form from Seath, via a perfected method drawn from the experiments in the archives (thanks to Acidic for that). So we know Seath has already applied his research to Gwyndolin at least once. Now here is one of the longshots of the theory:




    Pretty similar, right? We know Solaire goes crazy after being headcrabbed by one, suggesting to me that these things have a real effect on the character's mind. With the bug being a brain-parasite, perhaps Seath found a way to utilize one or create a synthetic one for his own ends, attaching it to Gwyndolin's face in order to control him. Evidence to support this theory:

    All of Gwyndolin's descriptions, including his gear, attest to him having an "affinity for the moon", except the Crown of the Dark Sun, which says:

    Crown of the Dark Sun Gwyndolin, protector of the forsaken city of Anor Londo.
    This crown of the gods demands faith immeasurable of its wearer, but it is imbued with Darkmoon power that enhances all magic.
    The image of the sun manifests Gwyndolin's deep adoration of the sun.

    OBVIOUSLY a fabrication. This is also the only description (save for one, but more on that in a minute) that references Gwyndolin as the "Dark Sun" rather than "Darkmoon". I believe that this item reveals Gwyndolin's manipulation and that it was forced onto him, rather than him having daddy issues with Gwyn and wanting to become like him. It just doesn't make sense that one with a deep affinity to the moon all of the sudden has this one, single headcrab item that says "lolno, actually he loves the sun", and also bears him a new title that is the exact opposite of his alignment. Also, Gwyn and Co. abandoned him there, why the hell would he serve them, especially after they had him transformed and cast out from the family? He is a prisoner left in Seath's control.

    Now, the illusion of Gwynevere. We have all long thought that this was just Gwyndolin's doing. However, what if it wasn't at all and rather, that was what we were intentionally led to believe? Seath is constantly studying magic and has a strong connection to Oolacile (another place aligned with the moon). Oolacile magic is based on illusion and subterfuge.

    Hidden Body - Invisibility
    Hidden Weapon - Make weapon invisible
    Chameleon - "Transform into something inconspicuous"
    And the grand daddy of them all for this theory:


    Cast Light:
    Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Cast a bright light upon surroundings. This light-producing sorcery is elementary but nonetheless demonstrates the achievements in mysticism of Oolacile. Such magic has not been developed even in Vinheim.


    Boom. Seath learned Cast Light from his interaction with Oolacile, and thus was able to create the illusion of "bright light upon surroundings". Along with the other obvious Oolacile illusion and trickery magic, Seath was able to create the illusion of Gwynevere, hence why killing Gwyndolin does not erase it. Seath is behind both the Gwynevere illusion and Gwyndolin, as both are vital components in linking the fire. I think this theory works so far even given that you can kill Seath and both are still around in Anor afterwards, as maybe they are somewhat autonomous creations (with Gwyndolin being essentially brainwashed and not dependent on Seath being alive).

    These illusions and fabrications are so well constructed that even the Darkmoon Knightess is fooled by them. In her description is the only other reference to a "Dark Sun", rather than "Darkmoon". This is probably a nod to her perspective, or personal acceptance of the fake title given to Gwyndolin. She is an undead suckered into the lie, like you. More on her later.

    Now for the Darkmoon covenant. Acidic, in a past thread, had said something to the effect of Gwyndolin taking over for Velka, the goddess of sin, who had fled Anor, leaving him to take care of the sinners. Here is my take on this:

    Velka and her followers work, at times and intentionally or not, against the gods. By absolving sin, they are allowing transgressions against the gods and for this Velka's Pardoner was banished to the painted world, a common ending for anyone who even seems like they could do something against Gwyn and Co.

    On the other hand, Gwyndolin is in charge of punishment while the main guy in charge of pardoning is locked away. Why? Obviously the gods don't give a **** about pardoning anyone that messes with them and Seath is going to see to it that the linking of the fire is not impeded upon, accomplishing this through Gwyndolin (EDIT: Rudmed pointed out that this part does not make sense, as you have to kill Seath to link the fire). On an unrelated note, read the description for Velka's talisman:

    Medium for casting miracles of the Gods.
    This black tuft of hair that serves as a talisman belongs to Velka, Goddess of Sin. It casts miracles not by drawing upon faith, but intelligence

    Intelligence magic is more related to the moon, rather than the faith-based sun miracles. What does this mean? Velka could be a moon-aligned god, but now I'm drifting...

    Now on to the even crazier stuff, how its possibly, loosely related to the French myth of Melusine.

    In the 1380s, a French duke decided to appropriate a castle in his territory from an aristocratic family that had lived there for centuries. When he did, the locals flew into a rage and he had to think of a way to get them to accept the eviction besides going to war with them. So he had a myth created, the myth of Melusine.

    It tells how in the time of the crusades, Elynas, the King of Albany (an old name for Scotland or Alba), went hunting one day and came across a beautiful lady in the forest. She was Pressyne, mother of Melusine. He persuaded her to marry him but she agreed, only on the promise — for there is often a hard and fatal condition attached to any pairing of fay and mortal — that he must not enter her chamber when she birthed or bathed her children. She gave birth to triplets. When he violated this taboo, Pressyne left the kingdom, together with her three daughters, and traveled to the lost Isle of Avalon.
    The three girls — Melusine, Melior, and Palatyne — grew up in Avalon. On their fifteenth birthday, Melusine, the eldest, asked why they had been taken to Avalon. Upon hearing of their father's broken promise, Melusine sought revenge. She and her sisters captured Elynas and locked him, with his riches, in a mountain. Pressyne became enraged when she learned what the girls had done, and punished them for their disrespect to their father. Melusine was condemned to take the form of a serpent from the waist down every Saturday

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine

    Later, a guy named Raymondin, "son of the Earl of the forest", accidentally kills his cousin while being attacked by a giant boar near their bonfire. He runs away and is distraught about it, but comes to a fountain and meets a beautiful half-human, half-fairy named Melusine. At first he thinks she is some kind of "diabolical creation", but she convinces him that she is a servant of God and that she will help him accomplish his goals. They marry on the condition that he never "follow her on a Saturday but to leave her alone in privacy.

    Everything goes well and Melusine builds a great fortress called "Lusignan" after "the latter part of her name". One day Raymondin peeked through her door and saw her snakeform. He gets mad about being lied to, but she goes crazy because he broke his oath. "Thus tragically betrayed, Melusine assumed the form of a serpent and flew around her namesake castle of Lusignan, as a public warning to those who would violate an oath." She vowed that she would only return when the rightful owner of the fortress appeared.

    Which, back to real life, was allegedly the aforementioned French duke, of course, and the evictees accepted the tale wholeheartedly.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=wvTo0fIuBIUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


    The myth has a lot of possible inspirations for Gwyndolin. Gwyndolin as the enforcer of oaths and punisher of oath breakers, peeking through his "door" and seeing his true form, etc. Also, if it truly is an inspiration for Gwyndolin, he could have actively done something to Gwyn before he was transformed into snakelegs.

    Well, that's it, let me know what you think.


    Last edited by SEANB240 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Seenblack on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:17 am

    Mind = Blown +1 to you man for the amazing theory. That was such an interesting read and it kept making more sense the further I read on.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:21 am

    Seenblack wrote:Mind = Blown +1 to you man for the amazing theory. That was such an interesting read and it kept making more sense the further I read on.

    Oh lord, thank you. I was worried that I would come across as a cracked out maniac while writing all this.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Rudmed on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:24 am

    Okay now a problem I see with your theory is this.

    Seath loves to capture people and experiment on them, but if Gwyndolin and his knight deal with oathbreakers through death that means there are less people getting to Seath which means less people to experiment with. Kinda hard to experiment with a dead body.

    Also another huge problem is linking the fires. In order to get to the Kiln you have to kill Seath! So his plan involves him dying, and then he can't experiment anymore!


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:31 am

    Rudmed wrote:

    Also another huge problem is linking the fires. In order to get to the Kiln you have to kill Seath! So his plan involves him dying, and then he can't experiment anymore!

    Ah, that's true, and if there is one character who really doesn't want to die, it's Seath. I still think there is a link between Oolacile magic and the illusion of Gwynevere, though, maybe it really is Gwyndolin's illusion. Seeing as he and Oolacile are both moon-based, maybe he went there at some point? Or learned it from Seath?
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Barnission on Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:39 am

    Actually, the similarities between the Sunlight Maggot and Gwyndolin's crown is a bit silly, honestly. The Sunlight Maggot is shaped like a sun incidentally, whereas the crown is obviously suppose to be representing the sun. Either way, the two items share no similarites other than that they both are somewhat shaped after the sun, which, again, does not connect the two together.

    Also, how can you deduce that because Gwyn left Gwyndolin alone, and that Gwyndolin has some admiration of his father, means Gwyndolin is Seath's pawn. You can't assume someone's motivations because of something like that.

    As far as your talk about Seath and Cast Light, because he studies magic and has a vague connection with Oolacile, this is proof of something? Not really. All it does is show another vague connection. As you even said, the moon and Oolacile are connected, and, y'know, there's Gwyndolin and that whole moon affection.

    I would say if Seath and Gwyndolin are working together, which would actually make sense, it would be mutual. Not to say that Seath hasn't influence Gwyndolin heavily, but to say Gwyndolin is but a mindless drone for Seath? Unlikely.

    Besides, basically saying "Seath could have found a way to utilize a sunlight maggot, but I don't know how" isn't really a telling tale. So there's an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Additionally, it's safe to assume that the sunlight maggots (implying there are multiple ones), which are a form of the chaos bug, are exclusive to Izalith. I do not believe there has been any evidence of Seath's channelers, or anyone working with Seath, to have even been down there.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:24 am

    Barnission wrote:Actually, the similarities between the Sunlight Maggot and Gwyndolin's crown is a bit silly, honestly. The Sunlight Maggot is shaped like a sun incidentally, whereas the crown is obviously suppose to be representing the sun. Either way, the two items share no similarites other than that they both are somewhat shaped after the sun, which, again, does not connect the two together.

    Not necessarily, but you have to admit that the Crown's description is pretty odd considering it is the complete opposite of every other thing describing Gwyndolin and his affection. This implies to me that something else is going on here and that particular item is a clue, whether it's really related to the Sunlight Maggot or not.


    Also, how can you deduce that because Gwyn left Gwyndolin alone, and that Gwyndolin has some admiration of his father, means Gwyndolin is Seath's pawn. You can't assume someone's motivations because of something like that.

    Maybe not Seath's pawn, as their goals would be at odds as Rudmed pointed out, but the corruption of Gwyndolin by Seath, his treatment by Gwyn and one item that is remarkably at odds with every fiber of his character makes it a little hard for me to believe that he is just doing all of this on his by his own free will.


    As far as your talk about Seath and Cast Light, because he studies magic and has a vague connection with Oolacile, this is proof of something? Not really. All it does is show another vague connection. As you even said, the moon and Oolacile are connected, and, y'know, there's Gwyndolin and that whole moon affection.

    Well, whether it be Seath or Gwyndolin himself, I think the connection there is pretty solid. There is literally no other place mentioned where illusory magic comes from, and the Gwynevere/sunlight illusion is the only in-game, lore-relevant illusion I can think of. I would say these illusions are definitely a product of Oolacile magic, no matter who created them.

    I would say if Seath and Gwyndolin are working together, which would actually make sense,


    No it wouldn't, as was already pointed out.

    Not to say that Seath hasn't influence Gwyndolin heavily, but to say Gwyndolin is but a mindless drone for Seath? Unlikely.

    Probably, but maybe he is under the influence of Gwyn or the others. I still think there is a lot more to Gwyndolin than is said, as we're given completely contradictory and suspicious information about him.


    Besides, basically saying "Seath could have found a way to utilize a sunlight maggot, but I don't know how" isn't really a telling tale. So there's an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Additionally, it's safe to assume that the sunlight maggots (implying there are multiple ones), which are a form of the chaos bug, are exclusive to Izalith. I do not believe there has been any evidence of Seath's channelers, or anyone working with Seath, to have even been down there.

    I admit that was a longshot, but I was just throwing out there how weird the Crown was in comparison and establishing a (however outlandish) theory about what it could mean. While there is no direct evidence of Seath or his guys in Izalith, I would guess that he would at least attempt to learn more about Chaos and pyromancy, or that he would at least know of the creatures' existence.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:15 am

    A lot of good ideas here but a coupel I must point out.
    If the crown was a maggot why would it require high fth?
    You say the illusion not dying with Dolin is cause it belongs to seath, but then seath dying still doesnt break it? This doesnt prove anything. It's already been theorised that the illusions are not illusions, they are magical constructs held together by their bonds, not requiring further magical support. Regardless of who creates them this theory works best. However needing Oolacilian magic is unlikely, he could easily have found this out himself.
    You also say the pardoner is locked up. He is not. Lautrec is locked up. The pardoner likely frees him when he arrives from nowhere.
    The intelligence magic does make a link. You also have the fact Seath is most likely responsible for Dolin's serpent legs which creates a definite link.

    So yeah, if you can iron out some problems Bar pointed out this could be big.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Eolan on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:23 am

    Also i swear if you kill dolin it goes dark no?
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:28 am

    Nope, only hitting Gwynevere makes it dark.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Eolan on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:05 am

    So who's doing gwynevere's voice then?

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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:10 am

    DoughGuy wrote:You say the illusion not dying with Dolin is cause it belongs to seath, but then seath dying still doesnt break it? This doesnt prove anything. It's already been theorised that the illusions are not illusions, they are magical constructs held together by their bonds, not requiring further magical support. Regardless of who creates them this theory works best.
    It supplieds its own voice.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Eolan on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:11 am

    So not kaathe ina wig?
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by DoughGuy on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:14 am

    No unfortunately not.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:20 pm

    Lesson learned: Don't make a thread three redbulls into a massive caffeine high. It sounded really good in my sleep deprived head.

    At least the Melusine thing could be related, but that belongs in the external/internal lore thread.

    You also say the pardoner is locked up. He is not. Lautrec is locked up. The pardoner likely frees him when he arrives from nowhere.

    But why is his gear found in the Painted World?
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Shkar on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:54 pm

    SEANB240 wrote:
    You also say the pardoner is locked up. He is not. Lautrec is locked up. The pardoner likely frees him when he arrives from nowhere.

    But why is his gear found in the Painted World?

    His gear being there doesn't mean much, BUT we know that someone brings the doll to your cell after you leave. Who else do we have the slightest idea as to "leaving the PW"?


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by SEANB240 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:01 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    SEANB240 wrote:
    You also say the pardoner is locked up. He is not. Lautrec is locked up. The pardoner likely frees him when he arrives from nowhere.

    But why is his gear found in the Painted World?

    His gear being there doesn't mean much, BUT we know that someone brings the doll to your cell after you leave. Who else do we have the slightest idea as to "leaving the PW"?

    I wonder why, though. Are we even sure the doll itself was ever in the PW?
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Barnission on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:53 am

    SEANB240 wrote:
    Shkar wrote:
    SEANB240 wrote:
    You also say the pardoner is locked up. He is not. Lautrec is locked up. The pardoner likely frees him when he arrives from nowhere.

    But why is his gear found in the Painted World?

    His gear being there doesn't mean much, BUT we know that someone brings the doll to your cell after you leave. Who else do we have the slightest idea as to "leaving the PW"?

    I wonder why, though. Are we even sure the doll itself was ever in the PW?

    "She clutched this
    doll tightly, and eventually was drawn into
    a cold and lonely painted world."

    That is part of the description of the peculiar doll, and it's not very indicative of whether or not the doll went with her. The safest assumption is that it did, however, there's no solid evidence.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by FattyOfDoom on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:28 am

    Someone should drop the pendant in Gyndolin's room.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by menzinho on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:13 pm

    hmmm your theory is really interesting, but i saw some flaws there i hope you do not mind me poiting them out, i just want you to polish them and make this an even more solid hypothesis

    first you said that Gwyndolin tentacles were made by an experiment of Seath, ok, i don't think that is the case see here
    "Gwyndolin, all too aware of his repulsive, frail appearance, created the illusion of a sister Gwynevere..." there we have it all, Gwyndolin was born with them, that is why he is "aware" of his appearance, one fact that also made Gwyn order him to be raised as a daughter, because a dress would hide his stuff... but you raised quite a beef here mate... Seath did not experiment on him... so why does he have tentacles? maybe his mother was the subject? i'm just saying
    Also i don't think the tentacles have a connection to Seath because they look scaly and serpentine, while the "failures" in the archives have frog like blue skin.

    Another point you made i'd like to comment on was the comparison between Gwyndolins mask and the Sunlight Maggot, first of, you claimed Solaires madness came after he placed the maggot on his head, and it started controlling him, maybe... so why didn't it do the same with you after you placed your big dumb head in it?

    Also one more question, you claim that all is on Seath's back... but why? what reasons did he had to try and maintain the age of fire? Seath is bananas, he doesn't care about Gwyn or the gods anymore, his research led him to being CRAAAAAAAAZY, so crazy he started abducting his masters daughter maidens, right in front of their noses, and was all like "whatchu gonna do about it huh? NUTHIN!" and turning them into freaks solely to try and find "the only thing he did not had", also why would he even consider maintaining a covenant of warriors who punish sinners? since that is not even Gwyndolins main element (also you talked a lot about Dark Sun, i think Dark Sun is just another term for Moon, think about it, in the medieval times when the Yellow Sun went down what came up? the Dark Sun)

    and the final point, if Seath is indeed controlling Gwyndolin, why does little Gwylly still acts the same after you've slain the mad dragon?

    Just some things i'd like to point out to ya, very nice thoughts though, liked the way you think keep it up


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Eolan on Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:16 am

    I personally think its as sordid as its set up.

    Gwyndolin was born and the truth of his lineage hidden from gwyn who raised him as his wee daughter.

    Untill one day Lord Gwyn discovered the secret beneath the skirt and sensing he'd been made a cuckold, and that the world he'd created (the gods he created too) were all falling to disrepair as the flame faded, he sacrificed himself to hold onto the hope he had for a ruling class, poisoned and broken by the knowledge that it all corrupted behind his back.

    Priscilla being older shows in her arc that gwynn was loveless towards her and banished her eventually. The mother did not want this for her new child (dolin) and hid the truth of seaths betrayal, fearing it would push gwynn over the edge. Gwyndolin loved his father the way any boy loves an absentee.



    Poor gwyn was just a man seeking good ina world of dark, his family corrupted by his own greatness. He has the expression of a man who'd lost his family to heroin or something.
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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Anchises on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:28 am

    I've always thought that the back of the Crown of the DarkSun looked like a beak.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Phantasmio on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:17 am

    Guys, it's ok. My signature proves that Gwyn is not a slave because it is fan art of him removing his mask.
    HE IS FREE OF THE CONTROL!!!
    In all seriousness though, good theory with good conclusions. You could definitely be onto something here.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by Phantasmio on Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:23 am

    "Gwyndolin, all too aware of his repulsive, frail appearance, created the illusion of a sister Gwynevere..."
    You are onto something there as well Menz, but I believe this refers to Gwyndolin's dream of being an actual woman. He created this image of Gwynevere in order to perhaps replicated the idea of the woman he wished he could be.
    You could still be right with him being born with the tentacles, but I believe this idea may make more sense, at least to me.


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

    Post by menzinho on Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:32 am

    I know Gwyndolin created Gwynevere as a reflection of what he wanted to be, nice mentioning by the way, but i used that example to prove he was born with the tentacles, and that Seath did not planted them on him after birth, but before


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    Re: Gwyndolin is a slave (Debunked)

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