Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

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    Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:56 pm

    I don't think anyone has tried to compile a list of tiers for weapons so people can see trends and what weapons they'd like to use. I thought I would give it a stab! Now, since this will be my first data thread I encourage everyone to offer polite feedback. The Compiled data will be based on weapon functionality, usefulness, and how common the weapon is. I am going to try and not be bias in this thread so I want to ask everyone else to respect the integrity of the data gathered here.

    Tiers- S/A/B/C/D/E
    Popularity- Uber(U)/Overused(OU)/Common(C)/Uncommon(UC/Underused(UU)/Neverused(NU)

    I will try to choose one weapon in each category to be placed in one of the tiers. This means there should be (permissive, of course) roughly 22 weapons per tier.

    Note- All weapons may or may not show up on this module.

    S A BC D E
    N/AClawDragon bone FistDark Hand N/ACestus


    Fist Weapons

    Claw- The claw got an A rating because while it typically fits into the UC category it has the best AR at 40/40/0/0 in the Fist Weapons category. It only has one attack type according to the wiki so it gets some negative points for that. It's limited range is also an issue although I would say it has the longest range of all the fist waepons. It is the only fist weapon with bleed and therefore gets a hefty tier boost for that. You can't block with them, and it has low durability. Overall, in the right hands this weapon is deadly.

    Dragon Bone Fist- Also an UC weapon that has some very nice qualities. With the third highest AR at 40/40/0/0 the DBF shines quite brilliantly. What makes this weapon very special is it's moveset and ability to be buffed. The Move set is fun and interesting. The R2 attack while risky will knock most opponents up in the air reminiscent of Ryu&Ken's Shoryuken from Street Fighter 2. If the moveset isn't enough to sell you, this weapon is one of the few boss weapons that can be buffed. The draw back to this weapon is that the R2 has a very long wind-up. It also cannot block. It is also the heaviest fist weapon at a whooping 8.0. Another fact about the DBF is that it is the only fist weapon with an S rating in scaling.

    Dark Hand- A common weapon used for stealing humanity and a slightly impressive shield if wielded in the left hand. For all of the details concerning its usefulness at sttealing humanity follow this link. As for its AR, it has the lowest of all four fist weapons at 40/40/0/0. It is a Darkwraith exclusive item. Meaning you have to at least join the covenant unless you want to farm New Londo Wraiths. I don't know about you but I cringe at that thought. However you don't have to remain a DW to use it. According to the wiki it doesn't require any stats to use it and the item as a shield is decent.

    Cestus- This weapon is NU. Despite it having the second highest Ar at 40/40/0/0 and getting A scaling in Faith if upgraded to occult, or A in intelligence if upgraded to enchanted it is very one dimensional. It uses a very common attack type. Though fast, nearly impossible to get close enough to do any real damage. This weapon is the underdog of the fist weapons. It is buffable and you can't block with it.

    To be Continued, edited, and organized.

    If you would like to add or have information changed to reflect more accurately how things are please feel free to provide your input and citations. This concludes the first few weapons I will list.



    Last edited by Umbassa Zealot on Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:38 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:56 pm

    Reserved...


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:57 pm

    Reserved...


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by FinPeku on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:03 pm

    I am actually currently collecting some data about weapons/spells used in duels. I could help you when i'm ready.

    I invade/host in burg and write down the weapons and spells my opponent used. I have now written down 26 duels.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:07 pm

    Dragon claw should be D, Fist E, so you can bump the caestus, dragon bow fist, and claw up.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:17 pm

    I don't think the correct way to go about a tier list is by weapon category. I've been toying with the idea for a while, and it's very subjective how one arranges the weapons. For example, how would you compare the MSGS and the Claymore? The Clay has a higher AR at 40/40, but the MSGS only scales with one stat, a major plus which allows for a buffing stat at 120. The clay is slightly faster and has more reach, as well as a arguably more versatile moveset. Before you make a tier list, you need to set parameters, like "tier list +15 for 40/40" or "tier list +15 for 120" or "tier list for max stats". Take, for example, the GSoA. At 120, I would consider it a low tier, probably D or E weapon. But with max stats, it's a weapon of mass destruction. When constructing a list such as this, you have to decide whether to include alternate paths such as Divine or Enchanted in your analysis, or whether to forgo that and focus only the weapon's moveset and attack rating. Usually, a weapon's starting AR will determine where it will end up damagewise, but there are exceptions to this as well, like the PGS and DGA that end up stronger than weapons that start with more AR.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:23 pm

    @FinPeku

    That would be great! Would you say that popularity wise I got the current weapon assessments right? I think popularity will be the hardest thing to get everyone to agree on.

    @cloudyeki

    Can you explain why you would drop claw so low, put DBF below Dark hand and cestus higher? I don't mind changing it to accurately reflect the weapon's rating, but I need to change the reasons why the weapons are in x tiers too if I do that.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:27 pm

    Umbassa Zealot wrote:@cloudyeki

    Can you explain why you would drop claw so low, put DBF below Dark hand and cestus higher? I don't mind changing it to accurately reflect the weapon's rating, but I need to change the reasons why the weapons are in x tiers too if I do that.

    I'm talking about the fists when you use the dragon body. It has 400 AR, but a poor moveset so it gets relegated to just bare fist bs. As well, the lowest tier should be the unequipped fist.

    So it'd be: claws, DBF, Cestus, Dragon claws, bare fist.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by dancash1808 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:11 pm

    Okay. claw as in the item has a longer windup than a great sword if that doesnt merit negative I dont know what does (although its a pretty big swipe.)
    cestus can actually rack up damage surprisingly quickly if you get in the range to use it. I beat a guy simply because he was standing there stunned while I punched him for loads. dragon bone A cestus D claw B in my opinion.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:32 pm

    @Ghadis_God

    You have some very good observations. The tiers aren't setup to evaluate each weapon at x SL, but actually measure the effectiveness of the weapon overall. Generally speaking, yes it's based off of typical PvP scenarios (for practical purposes). What you are saying if I understand you correctly is that given weapon's different scaling it is impossible to fairly judge every weapon next to one another. I say, nay, you are wrong. In a typical PvP scenario someone may not need to level 2 scaling stats to get the same damage, but that would be the down side to choosing the weapon over the single scaling stat choice. This tier system isn't for the purpose of saying X weapon is the best. it's purpose is to inform and narrow down choices based on each person's playstyle. For example, if you want to challenge yourself this list could help you figure out which set of weapons are most challenging to perform good with(i.e. you might be searching the E tier). If you wanted to gank in the forest you might be able to narrow your options with this list(i.e. by searching through the S tier). In a rare case you might see a weapon that could've been a S tier if not for the weight. That's how secular the parameters may get. It's important though to cite that in such an early stage of the data compiling process it's impossible to tell if we will get that secular or in depth, but I and hopefully others would certainly try to provide the most accurate information possible.

    @cloudyeki

    I don't want to deter you but this list is based off of Weapons only. Unequipped fists are the same as being unarmed(even if it does 20 AR)and therefore is not a weapon choice. This could also apply to the dragon claws as it is an item rather than a weapon you slot.

    @dancash1808

    Can you explain more in depth why you think Cestus out performs the Claw weapon. Also DBF is pretty high... Would you put that in the same tier as say, a rapier or a MLGS?


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:13 pm

    What I'm saying is that the tier balance of a weapon changes based on the build. A Str build will find the MSGS to be the best greatsword, but a 40/40 build will get much more out of the Bastard Sword or Claymore. However, most 40/40 builds are limited in magic, and so won't be able to buff. From Software, I think, anticipated this. Str builds, dex builds, and balanced builds each favor their own weapons in each weapon class, with a few exceptions. The Flamberge scales better with Dex than Str. The scythes are the dex. build's halberds, the BKH is the strength Halberd, while the rest are more balanced. The MSGS is for Str builds who want to use a greatsword without points in Dex. The Gargoyle tail Axe is a Dex-scaling axe, if you want to use a heavier weapon with a dex build. There are also weapons in each class that seem to be made to be buffed; in other words they have lower scaling or damage but better reach or moveset that let the buff user get hits off. Such weapons would include Ricard's rapier, the Washing Pole, which takes a heavy stat investment to reach the damage of other katanas but is blessed with excellent reach, and the Butcher knife, which has the best reach of the axes while only needing one stat.

    What I really mean is that there are weapons in each class that may be better or worse than others, and some that are OP almost undebateably, but they were all designed to have a role and stand out for some specific use, which means you can make tiers for certain builds or Sl ranges, but not overall.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:37 pm

    I know a strength weapon will be more effective than a dexterity weapon if your build is to use strength. No one has said differently. What I said is that each weapon has its strengths and weakness' and the tier list attempts to line up each of these weapons strengths and weakness' evenly to determine which ones you might want to look into using for a build you want to create. In the most basic terms possible, it is a "advanced Search" option that lists weapon choices based on hidden criteria such as movesets, preferences etc...

    This list is NOT a best in slot list.



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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:51 pm

    A weapon's strengths and weaknesses depend on the build you're using as much as the weapons "hidden attributes", which is why such a tier list is inappropriate. In a tier list for a fighting game, the characters are ranked before the player is taken into account; you might say the player chooses a character to maximize effectiveness and conforms his playstyle around that character's strengths. However, in DkS, trying to maximize effectiveness means choosing a weapon to fit the build. Of course it's possible to say "that weapon's really cool, I'm going to put stats in X and Y to use it properly" but the purpose of a tier list is to rank a player's options in terms of objective effectiveness, which means nothing in DkS, where a weapon's effectiveness is relative to, and reliant on the character's stats.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:44 pm

    I respect your opinion and understand how you feel about my data, now if you would be so kind as to respect the topic.





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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:57 am

    You need to set a standard. Sl is a huge factor in weapon effectiveness. The system your borrowing from doesn't specify a standard because the standard is level 100. There are several potential sl ranges to be used a standard here. You should either announce or decide on the sl range you are referencing in this, or do each weapon multiple times, for several different sl ranges.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:20 am

    the metagame will effect this a lot, as well as any possible glitches or game mechanics people choose to exploit.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by cloudyeki on Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:34 am

    I think you should do 3 sets for the weapon groups.

    1 for the 120 standard we've set, 1 for the 225 arena, and 1 for the new 99 arena.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Tristan on Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:35 am

    I'm actually really glad I didn't spend the extra time to fill out the entire graph. I can now see that this is hurting people more than helping. My troll has even somehow found a way to post in this thread. I most likely won't keep working on this. good luck and have fun everyone.

    Ps- Thank you everyone for being polite and helpful.


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    Re: Weapon Tiers (nongoing)

    Post by Jansports on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:04 pm

    I read UU and immediately thought of pokemon

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